Actor Brett Cullen plays a surprisingly sleazy version of Thomas Wayne in Joker, – but he may actually be a lot more comic book accurate than many Batman fans may think. Most famous versions of the Batman story have treated Thomas and Martha Wayne as the patron saints of Gotham City, with Thomas in particular often shown as a family man working to make Gotham better, before his tragic shooting. But Joker takes a different view.

Director Todd Phillips instead makes Thomas Wayne just another wealthy businessman looking to ascend to a position of power. As was rumored before the movie was released, Joker also hints that Wayne may actually be Arthur Fleck’s father, having aggressively covered up an affair. And given this portrayal, it doesn’t seem beyond him to have a former lover consigned to an asylum, rather than risking a scandal. It’s a portrayal many self-proclaimed Bat-fans will call disrespectful to the true character, but it’s not without comic book precedent.

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It’s worth remembering that most of what fans know of Thomas Wayne is presented through the filter of characters who loved and even idolized him, namely Bruce Wayne himself, and his beloved butler Alfred Pennyworth. Meanwhile, Thomas Wayne’s murder has essentially turned him into something of a Gotham City martyr, meaning he was destined to be remembered with a sense of nostalgia. The truth of Thomas Wayne would naturally be forgotten, consumed by the legend… which means comic book readers have probably never encountered the true Thomas Wayne at all.

Interestingly, more recent DC Comics runs have cast a less flattering light upon Thomas Wayne, or at the very least questioned his silver-lined memory. Grant Morrison implied that he was just another wealthy, powerful, self-interested businessman. And it isn’t much of a leap from that description to one who talks about “saving Gotham” as a marketing strategy to be elected as Gotham’s next mayor. While the Black Label series Batman: Damned shows Thomas’s infidelity, another time travel adventure, The Return of Bruce Wayne, reveals Thomas had feuded with the Kane side of the family, who had cut the Waynes off because they couldn’t stand Thomas. Incredibly, some of the Kanes even speculated that Thomas had arranged for Martha to be killed (but ended up dying next to her).

The years of suggestion that Thomas Wayne was also tied into the Falcone crime family finally led to his portrayal in the Batman game series from Telltale. There, Thomas was shown as a greedy Gothamite patriarch who used his wealth, status, and political connections to eliminate his enemies, and who had strong ties to the Falcone criminal empire–which dovetails fairly well with Joker‘s version. Comic book canon has tended to stick with a softer, or at least less detailed view of Thomas’s past, but the Joker version isn’t a stretch.

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