The Star Wars universe is filled with iconic villains: Boba Fett, General Grievous, Asajj Ventress, Darth Maul, Jabba the Hutt, Moff Gideon. But arguably the two greatest villains from the saga are Darth Vader and Emperor Palpatine. The former was praised as one of the silver screen’s finest baddies from his first appearance in 1977, while the latter was revealed to be the puppet-master in control of his actions.

They’re the two evil Sith Lords who destroyed the Republic and turned it into the Empire. Here are five reasons why Vader is the Star Wars saga’s best villain, and five why it could be Palpatine.

10 Vader: He’s A Faceless Symbol Of Evil

Although the prequel trilogy has meant that we can picture Darth Vader’s face under his mask while we’re rewatching the original trilogy, Vader still works brilliantly as a faceless personification of evil.

His mask has human features, but the dark, soulless eyes, robotic mouthpiece, and armored dome give him a hauntingly inhuman quality.

9 Palpatine: He Was The Villain Of All Three Trilogies

Anakin Skywalker was a Jedi for most of the prequel trilogy, and only became Darth Vader in time to rule the galaxy with an iron fist throughout the original trilogy. And apart from his charred helmet and a brief vocal cameo, he didn’t appear at all in the sequel trilogy.

Sheev Palpatine, on the other hand, was the evil puppet-master behind all three trilogies in the Skywalker saga. It definitely wasn’t planned for the sequel trilogy, as Snoke was retconned into a Palpatine creation, but it’s still a huge point in Sheev’s favor.

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8 Vader: He Has An Undeniably Intimidating Presence

Whenever Darth Vader strides into a scene, his presence can be felt immediately. Thanks to David Prowse’s menacing build and Vader’s samurai-inspired costume, the character has an undeniably ominous presence.

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This has been the case since his initial introduction in the original 1977 Star Wars movie, when he emerged from a cloud of smoke onto Tantive IV and strangled information out of a helpless Rebel trooper.

7 Palpatine: His Greatest Power Is Manipulation

Although Palpatine is one of the strongest Force users who ever lived, and he has the power to corkscrew through the air and shoot lightning out of his fingers, his greatest power is manipulation.

He didn’t need to use his lightsaber to take control of the Galactic Senate; he just manipulated the galaxy’s elected officials into giving him the keys. He didn’t need to use the Force to bring down the Jedi Order; he just manipulated Anakin Skywalker into doing it by telling him the Tragedy of Darth Plagueis the Wise.

6 Vader: James Earl Jones’ Cold Line Delivery

Darth Vader’s physical form was played by David Prowse, but his dialogue was dubbed over by James Earl Jones, who really defined the character’s personality with his cold line delivery.

Jones could take an otherwise corny one-liner — e.g. “I find your lack of faith disturbing,” “I am altering the deal — pray I don’t alter it any further,” or “If only you knew the power of the dark side…” — and turn it into something terrifying and iconic.

5 Palpatine: Ian McDiarmid’s Deceptively Camp Performance

George Lucas couldn’t possibly have cast a more perfect actor to play Sheev Palpatine than the legendary Ian McDiarmid. In the prequel trilogy, he was, by turns, deceptively camp under the guise of a senator, and suitably sinister in his true form as a Sith Lord.

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In the original trilogy, he was a full-on mustache-twirling baddie with a snarling voice, but there was still a delightful layer of camp. And although his appearance in The Rise of Skywalker felt forced and unplanned, McDiarmid continued to knock every line out of the park.

4 Vader: He Achieved Redemption

Redemption arcs are overused these days, especially in sci-fi and fantasy stories, but Darth Vader’s redemption still holds up. He sees the Emperor relentlessly blasting his son with Force lightning, and the good in Anakin Skywalker bubbles back up to the surface.

Killing Palpatine doesn’t suddenly forgive Vader for slaughtering the Jedi younglings and blowing up Leia’s planet and all the other bad stuff he did, but it was cathartic to see him rise above the man who manipulated him into committing all those horrific acts in his final stand against evil.

3 Palpatine: His Arc Was More Consistent

Whereas Vader’s return to the light side of the Force came a little out of the blue, Palpatine’s arc was consistent throughout the entire Skywalker saga (even the sequels, to an extent). In every trilogy, Palpatine just wanted an apprentice who would become powerful enough to kill him and replace him. Ultimately, his apprentice did kill him, but then he died, and the Rebels restored peace to the galaxy.

So, Palpatine came back as a clone (which was explained in the novelization, not the movie) to try to do the same thing with his morally conflicted Force-sensitive granddaughter, Rey. Sheev was nothing if not consistent. His motivations — and why he had them — were always clear. And if his plans were foiled, he simply adapted the plans.

2 Vader: He’s A Tragic Hero

The original trilogy depicted Darth Vader as a straight villain, but the prequel trilogy revealed that he’s more complex than that. Those movies went back to show us his backstory. Star Wars fans were surprised (and, in some cases, disappointed) to see that Vader was once a wayward nine-year-old slave boy on Tatooine.

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He was trained as a Jedi, lauded as “the Chosen One” who was going to destroy the Sith, and eventually fell from grace as Palpatine got his hooks into him and swayed him over to the dark side of the Force. He’s a tragic hero, like Hamlet or Romeo or Gatsby.

1 Palpatine: He Was Vader’s Master

As great as Darth Vader is, we can’t discredit the fact that Palpatine taught Vader everything he knows. Well, Obi-Wan taught him the ways of the Force, but Palpatine taught him many abilities some consider to be unnatural. In a sense, that makes Sheev automatically superior.

Just when Vader seemed like the evil mastermind in charge of the Empire in the original trilogy, it turned out that he was answering to an even more powerful mastermind, who was actually running things.

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